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The minutes are published. No summary has been written yet.
Apologies for absence were received from: County Councillors: L Roberts, E Vaughan, J Pugh. Co-opted Members Margaret Evitts and Gareth Hall. Cabinet Member for a Learning Powys - P Roberts. Jane Thomas - Director of Corporate Transformation, Georgie Bevan - Head of Schools Service.
There were no Declarations of Interest from Members relating to items to be considered on the agenda.
The Committee did not receive any disclosures of prohibited party whips which a Member has been given in relation to the meeting in accordance with Section 78(3) of the Local Government Measure 2011.
Documents Considered: · Minutes of the 20th March 2024 Minutes agreed by Committee members present as a true and accurate reflection of the meetings and ratified accordingly by the Chair.
Background: · Since 2014 schools builds have been has been part funded by the Council and Welsh Government (WG) · Previously the Capital programme was split into 5-year Bands with a funding envelope based on the Strategic Outline Programme (SOP). · In order to be more flexible, WG have changed the approach, given the market volatility and previous lessons learned. · WG have requested a 9-year rolling programme, based on 3-year tranches: o Years 1-3 projected expected to reach Full Business Case (FBC) within the 3 years. o Years 4-6 projects that were being developed and progressed through statutory consultation. o Years 7-9 would be pipeline projects. · WG expect LA’s to review their programmes, at least, every 3 years, which would allow for projects to be brought forward. · Intervention rates were noted within the report as the same as those previously. · Investment Objectives for the WG programme were very clear: o Transform Learner environments and experience. o Meet the demand for school places, including criteria around Welsh Medium Education. o Improving condition and suitability of the school estate, LA’s specifically requested to reduce the amount of Condition D and C buildings. o Development of sustainable learning environments, aligned with the net zero targets. o Supporting the Community- schools to be utilised as best as possible for the benefit of the community. · There were 2 key links for the Sustainable Communities for Learning SOP: o Central to the Sustainable Powys programme, how to transform the schools estate, to be sustainable, meeting the net zero agenda and community focussed moving forward. o Under the Transforming Education Strategy there was an enabling action to implement the major capital investment programme. · The estimated cost of the overall programme was £300m which was profiled over 12years, due to concerns around affordability. · There was not a pot of funding from which delivery would be the expectation, the new approach was that each project would stand up for itself, with business cases for each project being scrutinised, with LA’s and WG consideration being given on a case-by-case basis. Points raised by the Panel: Responses received from Officers or Cabinet Members. The long-term view was welcomed by Members, which would allow for projects to be scrutinised over the coming years. The programme has not altered much over the last 3-4 years, and realistically new builds would be 10years plus away from completion. Clarity was requested on how the programme aligned with Sustainable Powys in particular reference to affordability. WG have allowed LA’s to move previous Band B projects into the 9-year programme. The remaining Band B projects in design stage were Bro Hyddgen, Sennybridge, Brynllawarch and Calon y Dderwen, which would utilise a significant amount of the funding. Whilst appreciate the frustration felt by Members, another change to be considered and has been alluded to within the papers shared, previously PCC has tended to look toward and deliver new builds, with this more flexible programme, PCC need to consider remodelled schools or extensions to make the funding go further to impact more schools. Discussions have taken place on whether to look at different models of buildings for quicker delivery i.e. off-site builds etc. The preferred option of Option 3 the wording allows PCC to utilise funding as flexibility as possible. The idea would be to find a flexibility of approach within the programme, having the right solution for each individual project as was clear no two projects were the same, the strategic approach could differ quite considerably. Off-site construction was one modern method which has been used and would continue to extend that discussion, against the need to make funding go further. Further explanation of off-site construction was requested. Offsite construction was where elements were built in a factory i.e. floor, wall or roof cassettes, pods or modules. Timber framing at its best was an example off-site build. It was positive to note the flexible approach and the importance of utilising new technology wherever possible. In reference to the Mutual Investment Model (MIM), has any further reassessment been made of that model. No. Previously had compared the costs of Brecon High School under the MIM model and could not evidence any advantage from the MIM. It could be run again as the MIM had certain issues, as looked for projects over £100m, and batch projects together and therefore unsure if the MIM approach would suit projects moving forward as may not hit the £100m threshold. Within the papers there was no mention of Additional Learning Needs (ALN) provision A separate ALN review was being undertaken and Committee and the Transformation Service will have to await the outcome. It was explained that the programme was flexible in terms of ALN. Powys has 3 Special schools, Penmaes, Cedewain and Brynllawarch with the major investment to support those school in progress. There was now a different approach to ALN, acknowledging the need for space within schools for learners with ALN. Each new school design has a an ALN component, and it was noted that schools size and ALN requirements vary, each scheme in place currently has an ALN component which would align with the long-term development models. How was funding for repairs to Brynbach sourced, was this via Brynllawarch School and what were the running costs. Information would be sourced from ALN colleagues. Ysgol Cedewain was supposed to have a satellite site at Llanfyllin , however it never materialised. The PRU has a different business model, would this inform the Capital programme moving forward. Yes, possibly, if Capital funding was required, as with ALN, there was an ongoing review, therefore there was nothing specific noted within these papers. There were 3 options within the report and explanation was requested as to why options 1&2 remained within the plan as costings had been completed on option 3 only. Concern raised that work had commenced in the Llanfyllin catchment, with the announced closure of Llangedwyn School and other schools either in consultation or proposal stages, given the current financial landscape, if the Cabinet chose Option 1 where would that leave those particular areas. 1 option was delivering the previous Band B projects that were in design stage and on track, including any school within the Condition D element, which was the realistic option of what could be delivered and was affordable. Option 2 has all projects within Option 1 and includes more aspirations of the WESP as a key criteria for the Council i.e., Calon Cymru and all through Welsh Mediums in Builth, and possibly Bro Caereinion, which was currently in objection period for change of language medium. Bro Caereinion operates across 2 sites which was not the most efficient all-through model. Option 3 builds further on option 2, and included other projects i.e., the Llanfyllin catchment, the outcome was a combination of school reorganisation and new builds added. Option 3 was the recommended preferred option to maximise as much of the £300m as possible, to deliver the strategic aims and objectives of the Strategy. The first schemes within Option 1 are in the current Capital programme. As move to Options 2 & 3 Business cases at each stage would develop the needs of individual schools. It was difficult at this stage to quantify those costs due to the many variables as plans are progressed. There was a commitment within the Capital programme of a certain amount per annum. There was also the assumption that WG will fund 65%, but it was great to have such an ambitious plan. Would the Capital programme allow for the development of Welsh medium education, in terms of the scheme being used to further collaboration between schools i.e., Bro Caereinion and Llanfyllin to provide a full GCSE curriculum. The aim should be for Welsh medium education across all of the county, could the Committee be assured that this Capital programme would be a driver for further delivery. Welsh medium education provision would be provided, however, it did not fit into this capital discussion, and would be an area the Cabinet would look at. Concern was expressed of the long-term view of the programme and how would the 3 blocks highlighted within the report tie in with Sustainable Powys. The proposals on Pg 58-60 of the report suggested that all current schools were to be maintained. In other forums Members have been informed that Secondary schools should have 750 minimum places, Primary schools potentially 210 minimum places, leading to Secondary school intakes of 150 pupils, with acknowledgment of a lower pupil intake of 120 for Welsh medium Secondary Schools. Ysgol Calon Cymru was an issue, how could 2 Secondary Schools be maintained in 2 towns so close to one another. A Welsh medium primary should be developed in Brecon, to allow for those learners from Sennybridge to remain in county for their education and create an all through school. This programme appeared to be re-enforcing the status quo; Dafydd Llwyd should have an all-through school which would have a knock-on effect. The Sustainable Powys model looks at the 4 core hub areas, the capital programme would move along that line. Within the 4 core hub areas, Welsh medium education provision must be addressed, some of the Welsh Medium secondary provision would have to be smaller than the minimum sized secondary school. The Brecon primary school development fell under the Sustainable Powys model, bringing 3 schools into 1, as did the Llanfyllin Catchment bringing a number of schools together. The approached would have to be phased ensuring Welsh medium, the rationalisation of schools and the poor condition of building were all addressed. The Capital programme would provide the necessary flexibility required for the transformation strategy to align with Sustainable Powys by including all age schools and post 16 provision. Clarification requested on when the decision was made for the Builth Campus to become a Welsh medium all through school, there was also proposals of removing Welsh streams, making either bilingual or English schools. The placed based planning approach had been discussed with Town & Community Councils which has led to a lack of coherence between the schemes. Ysgol Calon Cymru building was in a desperate state and the aspiration was for Ysgol Calon Cymru to have a new build in Llandrindod, and Welsh Medium provision in Builth. This proposal would be presented to Cabinet in the next few months. Within this programme, apart from those that were in the design stages, was aspirational and would have to be based on Cabinet decision, any statutory process required and with the appropriate business cases completed. There remain long term issues in catchment areas, the transformation programme may provide some solutions to issues, under Sustainable Powys there was the opportunity to progress this further, but still looking at 2030 with 1-2 cohorts of learners not receiving the educational provision, from a buildings perspective, they deserve. Committee wished to seek assurance from the Portfolio Holder for a Learning Powys, that Welsh Medium streams would not be removed from High School. Action:- Portfolio Holder to be asked for a written response to the above. The Schools Service Officer responded that the Portfolio holder would have to answer that themselves. However the WESP was very clear of the ambition in include and to improve access to Welsh Medium education. Clarification sought in regard to £1.8m for Church schools, were there any caveats with these funds, or were there available to all schools within the project scope. Concern was raised of the assumption not being liable, if not, additional costs would have to be factored in. Had the longevity of new construction models against more traditional building models been factored in to ensure value for money. The Church funding alludes to one of the recommendations from the Llanfyllin catchment review for a new CIW primary school to replace 2 other primary schools. WG provides additional funding for Church schools and voluntary aided schools at a different rate. In terms of VAT the Council is subject to Partial exemption, whereby it does not charge VAT on some services provided. If the limit was reached within 3 or 4 years, the Council may have to charge VAT or record that it was not able to reclaim VAT. In terms of inflation, the costs used were current costs for similar sized schools. Business cases would outline more detailed costings at each relevant point, the figures used were best guessed estimates for the outline plan. The choice of structural frame should not have any impact on longevity of a building, the occupants should not be aware of the construction model. Schools are designed to improve teaching outcomes. Timber frame has distinct advantages particularly against local supply chains which are well supported by the timber industry, as part of the carbon agenda, the energy efficiency in the operation of buildings, assurance given that cost benefit analysis was looked at across the life of the building. The classroom dimensions of any new builds or refurbishments, should be of an appropriate size to accommodate increasing learner numbers as a result of merging classes. The Cabinet Member for Finance and Corporate Transformation noted that it was clear the recommendation from Officers was that Option 3 was an the most attractive option, it was highly ambitious, which would place emphasis not only on the Educational but the Financial aspect also. Officers have explained how closely monitored the capital programme moving forward given the volatile and uncertain economic situation. W What was clear was that inflation was coming down with projections from economists to meet the midsummer BoE target of 2%. However geopolitical events, in particular around energy could affect this, and core inflation remains at 4.2%. The programme was highly ambitious and reflected the aspirations of Sustainable Powys, but accepted concerns raised by Committee for how both programmes aligned. The Director commented that the Capital programme was ambitious, the clear alignment with the Welsh Government Strategy was an integral part of this work. Committee spoke of the need for pace and urgency, looking at the 3 stages of the plan pace and speed would gather as the programme progressed. Sustainable Powys was the foundation of all that was being undertaken, culture change, alignment to the transforming education strategy. It was emphasised that work with school leaders and Governing Bodies on local change and buy in from communities was crucial. Both Governance and Audit Committee and Finance Panel had requested a 10year Capital programme to sit alongside the budget each year. The WG 9-year rolling plan progressing to the12-year plan outlined in these reports, reinforces the need for the long- term view when budget papers were being set. The plan gave a sense of the direction, the schools building programme far outweighs any other capital programme within Powys, admittedly there remained some volatility but this was settling. Services would have to adjust to the prevailing financial climates to maximise the flexibility within the long-term programme. It was essential however to keep the learner entitlement and the teaching environment at the forefront of decision making.
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