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The minutes are published. No summary has been written yet.
Apologies for absence were received from Emma Palmer, Chief Executive Officer. Jane Thomas, Director of Corporate Services and S151 Officer.
There were no declarations of interest from Members relating to items for consideration on the agenda.
The Committee did not receive any disclosures of prohibited party whips which a Member has been given in relation to the meeting in accordance with Section 78(3) of the Local Government Measure 2011.
Documents Considered: 11.09. 2024 and as Chair of the 13.11.2024 Joint Scrutiny on the Inclusion Strategic Plan. Minutes agreed by Committee members present as a true and accurate reflection of the meetings and ratified accordingly by the Chair.
Background: Additional Presentation provided by Marianne Evans. Points raised by the Panel: Responses received from Officers or Cabinet Members. Clarification sought by Committee Chair as to what could be added by Scrutiny given the paper was at Full Business Case stage. Questions already received across the different Boards and Welsh Government (WG) in terms of was the school build big enough in relation to demand. Would there be equity at a future date for similar in the south of the County. Location and the catchment of the school was confirmed in the strategic case of 2018/19 as the right location, post Covid was this still the case. The site remained the best location not only strategically but operationally for the build. The site was in Council ownership, a key factor in the decision and despite other Council owned sites being considered. The majority of learners at Brynllywarch are from Montgomeryshire with a few attending from the Mid of the county. There is concern about the capacity of Brynllywarch and the demand for BESD provision which points to whether consideration is required in future as to whether a second site was required in the south of the County. The maintenance backlog for the existing building stood at £3.8m. Powys’ contribution of 25% of costs for the new build equated to £3.1829m and would be less money to contribute to new than to continue with the old building. That was correct. Information requested in the relationship with the satellite school in Ystradgynlais. Bryn Bach was a class within Maes y Dderwen High School and offered a suite of classrooms with specialist teachers and a LSA, with the Headteacher effectively an executive Head of both sites. The learners who attended were mainly from Breon and Ystradgynlais. There were 8 learners currently, with little space to accommodate more due to complexity and size of the space. The site remained successful and was like to continue into the future. Whilst the maintenance backlog was noted at £3.1m to refurbish and bring the school to modern standards would be £12.6m which would have to be fully funded by PCC. How would the Local Authority meet the needs of south Radnorshire and Brecon for those learners with BESD. Concerns were raised in regard to the travel time of 1 hour to attend Brynllywarch School. In terms of the areas mentioned in the Mid and South of the County, the numbers were not seen currently, however aware this may change in the future. The Service acknowledged the distance and the travel time, the school did have their own staff on the specialist transport to support learners on journeys. What were other schools within the mainstream sector doing which meant that the specialist support for those learners was not required, that Welshpool and Newtown were not. There could be considered an equality of provision. No school was handling situations any differently, the specific need in other communities was not there or not to the same level of complexity demonstrated to those learners in the North. There could possibly be an inequality to access to provision in terms of transport time to either Brynllywarch or Bryn Bach. The travel time would be a conversation when determining whether a second site in the South was required. Learners travel to Brynllywarch from some distance, these are our most vulnerable children, there was a considerable commitment from the parents who choose the school as the provision was fantastic educationally. Point raised in terms of capacity, would there be sufficient capacity in the future, the report noted there were 8 6th Form students at present, what were the predictions moving forward. Information requested in the CADW discussions which related to the old Mansion House on the site. The capacity and projections were not calculated nor available in same way as mainstream schools. The general projection was of 80 pupils over the next few years, with the increased demand. There were 7 classrooms to accommodate 64 pupils based on a ratio of 8 per class. There were 3 specialist rooms and a lot of external workshops. The school itself operated very creatively to manage the pupils in a different way to other schools. The design was such that extensions could be added. Brynllywarch would only be able to accommodate so much and at that time in the future there would have to be consideration for a second site. Brynllywarch was a very energetic school which had embraced the Curriculum for Wales, and the new school had been designed in a way to develop and embrace the new curriculum. It would allow the schools to have different group sizes in different spaces, giving greater flexibility around timetabling into the future. Post 16 provision numbers at the school were 15 across Yrs 12,13 & 14. The current building would be available for capital receipt. It was CADW listed, which could provide issues in relation to disposal, unless there was any other use for the current Mansion House. Engagement with CADW would continue to explore opportunities. Would the proximity of the new school compromise the value of the asset if taken to the market in the future, had there been any compromise in the design to reduce the delay in re-tendering, were there any compromises on the specification of the new build that would have a detrimental impact on the learners. Confirmation sought of how the school aligned with the ALN strategy and equity of provision, there were significant taxi bills, and labour intensive supervised taxi’s given that there had been promise of other satellite provision. Question to the Portfolio Holder how easy was making sure that county-wide provision was equitable and equally accessible for all learners moving forward, In terms of the location, the new build was discreet in form separated by grid planting and existing plant life from the exiting Mansion House. Conversations had been ongoing with the valuation team. There were no compromises in terms of design the areas and specifications remained unchanged. When re-tendered it was opened to contractors choice on key elements like frame which impacted on the prices presented. Lifespan of the building was the same. The new build was intrinsically linked to the ALN and Inclusion Strategic Plan, the new qualifications would help learners with behaviour, emotional and social difficulties (BESD). Work has been undertaken with the new builds and with the Headteachers of both Brynllywarch and Robert Owen schools to enhance the offer already in place. Outreach or further satellite provision had been reviewed for how to better support outreach and deliver changes and support at pace through mainstream schools rather than moving some learners elsewhere. The Portfolio Holder confirmed that opportunities were emerging in the south of the county however due to the ALN Strategic Inclusion Plan anything further at this time would be to prejudge the progress of work with mainstream education. Clarification sought on the numbers stated in the papers on capacity. Figures would be checked and amended if required. In terms of the community aspect, was there a village hall and would there be demand for the community to access the school. Community focused schools are a key part of the WG programme, perhaps in this case the wording of community room was not correct as it would essentially be a space for different organisations to use to support the learners. However, it could be utilised as an income generation asset as a usable space. Discussion held on equality of provision, in terms of travel, how much equity of provision or consideration had been given to support those learners of Welsh speaking families. Brynllywarch were committed to the Welsh language, even though an English medium school there was a significant amount of work ongoing to enhance the pupils and staff skills. 2 of the teaching staff were fluent Welsh speakers. Work was also underway to establish a Criw Cymraeg supported by officers from the education service. The school are passionate about promoting the Welsh language and culture. Whilst the build was ongoing was there likely to be disruption to existing pupils, access to building sites etcetera. . Safeguarding is number one priority whilst works undertaken. A traffic management plan would be in place with heavy loads entering via the two main approaches. Discussion has been held with the Highways Dept. for particular routes which would mean there should not be any disruption to the existing school during the operation. For some pupils the construction has been a unique learning development opportunity. Concern raised that the Transformation programme on the whole does not have urgency, projects take a number of years to be fulfilled, and the budget situation adds to these concerns. The Portfolio Holder agreed delay was disappointing, there were 3 phases to progress through, also delay at within the planning process due to a request for Ministerial intervention. There are 2 other projects in earlier stages of the process that have been delayed briefly whilst build methods and costs are reviewed. Clarification sought on paragraphs 5.6 and 5.8 of the report in terms of savings on the funding formula. The 69k is the saving on the rerun of the funding formula, the funding the school would receive would be reduced due to the premises. The element in 5.8 was in anticipation of additional utility costs that the school would bear as part of their anticipated revenue spend. There are increased costs around technology elements and the technicalities of management. The Council’s policy was to repay debt over the average life of the assets, general average was 34 / 35 years. How would any capital receipt affect the figures quoted within the reports shared. If the project had £1m of capital receipts instead of £1m of borrowing, the £175k quoted would reduce by 55-65k per annum dependent on the borrowing rate at the time. If received £3m in capital receipts, there would be no borrowing costs. Where do the costs for the property sit whilst still in the possession of council, Education budget or held centrally with Property. Once education had vacated a property, the asset would be transferred to Corporate property who would manage the property’s future. Brynllywarch has residential facilities, had all avenues been explored with Children’s Services to meet the Children’s Services strategy of Closer to Home Yes, discussion were held with Children’s Services at the inception of the project, and it was decided not to progress with residential. The Director gave assurance on the Transformation programme, given the comments of lack of pace. Individual papers get challenged through the Senior Management process. Wave 1 has been completed, Wave 2 of the transformation programme was being completed, with the exception of the Presteigne Review and the Ysgol Calon Cymru papers which would be coming to Scrutiny. The Service was looking to bring Wave 3 earlier than 2027. When the arc of transformation is viewed, ensuring that the structure of schools was right across the Authority, there was acceleration of the programme.
Points raised by the Panel: Responses received from Officers or Cabinet Members. Chair of the Learning and Skills Committee stated that they had always been supportive of this initiative, and now Powys had an opportunity to make a real difference. Officers have shown their commitment increasing number of learners becoming bilingual across Powys. Data and statistical information has been included within the Education Service IEP, (Integrated Education Plan), which would also be a measure within the Corporate Strategic and Equalities Plan (CSEP) 2025-26. The main challenge was funding, how would schools contribute. The Trochi Chair’s Report would be shared with the Fair Funding Formula Panel and the Schools Budget Forum. Schools must demonstrate a commitment to Welsh Medium education, question raised whether matched funding could be considered as an option to increase funding. The Funding Formula Review Group would consider any changes and currently working toward April 2026. Any proposals or changes that were brought forward would involve full consultation with all schools and their governing bodies. Component 4 of the Formula was for national and LA priorities, at present special schools accessed these specific funds. If consideration were given to schools’ contributions, the narrative would need to be clear and concise, a period of consultation would be required including the Funding Formula Review Group and the Schools Budget Forum, prior to any arrangements being put in place. There were various ways of approaching the movement of funds under the funding formula and whether there were amendments required e.g., additional funding for Trochi provision, or through a business case to implement changes to the delegated base budget, which would form part of the Councils Finance Resource Model (FRM) Also for clarification purposes the funding formula provides the same funding for both an English stream and a Welsh stream in terms of components. A dual stream school was treated as separate schools for both funding purposes, with a minor element included in the formula for Welsh Medium and dual stream schools of £3-5k translation more than an English stream school for translation purposes. The Portfolio Holder for a Learning Powys wished to express his gratitude to the Trochi Working Group. The issues that have been identified echoed and supported the messages from them along with the backing from other Portfolio Holders in discissions with the Minister. The group has identified the challenge of support and immersion in rural areas, and the need to provide greater levels of provision. It was hoped that through the progression of the organisational changes in respect to Welsh Medium Primary and Secondary level across the county, there would be 3 localities to review for immersion centres. Assistance from Welsh Government was required for all rural counties, given the distances involved, to make a significant contribution to the 2050 target, if this was a genuine WG priority. Officers will be asked to bring this to the attention of their peers in Welsh Government. Outcomes · The Trochi Working Group Chair’s Report was ratified by the committee. · Report and Recommendations to be presented by the Chair of the Working Group Cllr Bryn Davies, to Cabinet date to be confirmed. Addendum to the meeting: – Trochi Working Group Chair’s Report to be submitted to Cabinet for the 4th March meeting.
Committee noted the paper and the additional presentation made by Anwen Orrells. Precis of the report given by Dr Richard Jones Director of Education. Points raised by the Panel: Responses received from Officers or Cabinet Members. Why are we letting our children down. This data had been requested by Committee for a long time. Standards in schools have been slipping, the outcomes for learners are deteriorating and there was an increase in number of schools in an Estyn category, which was quite frightening. There would not be a single teacher that would want to let our children down, however it had perhaps become an element that required focus for appropriate challenge. We must identify the potential our learners have and push them to the fullest, with an offer of the breadth of subjects choices as described in the presentation, which has to be balanced within the funding envelope. The Service continues to support and challenge both senior and middle leaders, establishing peer groups. Assurance given that the Service would not rest until standards were where they were expected and would continue to compare to other equivalent LA’s. Director Of Education commented that there were variable standards and a lack of consistency across Powys’ schools. The Authority have set a vision and have a strong strategy to realise that vision. Need to focus on the things that would impact on learning progression in schools. A key requirement was how well do we know our schools, what was the relationship between School Improvement Advisors (SIA) and school leaders, how were the education authority supporting and challenging evaluation and improvement planning in schools to ensure the right areas were targeted, work in these areas was ongoing. Powys really did need to have that comparison to equivalent authorities, however there was something fundamentally wrong in the schools. The commitment of teachers, headteachers was not being questioned, but Estyn have highlighted teaching, learning and leadership concerns, which possibly could correlate to funding, asking schools to undertake more than able. Comments made in relation to the new qualifications, in this meeting, that the schools will try and figure it out, was not acceptable. The new qualifications would be dependent on what staff are in the school for what subjects could be taught. Would the new qualifications lead to better outcomes and futures for our children. WG keep moving goalposts making targets difficult to achieve. The implementation of the new curriculum would not be left to chance. The Service was working with leaders, the subject teams with our teachers ensuring they were supported. The capacity of our schools was important as was making sure all leaders and middle leaders get opportunities to work with MWEP (Mid Wales Education Partnership) and use those links across Wales. Mr Andrew Williams, headteacher of Radyr HS had undertaken the deep dives on funding which has assisted in forging significant relationships with Ysgol Radyr in Cardiff providing examples of how they have driven teaching and learning in their schools. Would Scrutiny Committee also be presented with similar data and information for early years and primary education. It was vital to engage in the right way at the primary level, have appropriate monitoring to improve the experience and introduction to education for our young learners. The information shared was the only quantitative data held Since the implementation of the Curriculum for Wales, levels have been removed. Information on Early Years profiles and settings could be shared with Committee. How would the enthusiasm be sustained for secondary teaching staff given the vast suite of subjects under the new (Vocational Certificate in Secondary Education) VCSE curriculum, none of which are qualifications the current workforce have been trained in. The service continues to support as much as possible, for example the secondary team supports in individual subject areas, and with support from the WJEC curriculum leads. The Local Authority has representation at a national level on workforce planning working groups, to review the retention of staff as well as recruitment across all schools. Was the Education Service expecting the recent results following Estyn inspections. Without discussing individual schools, there was a school that had caused a level of surprise. However, we were confident through work with new colleagues and consistency across the SIA teams that the evaluations on schools and areas of strengths and developments were accurate, through utilising a greater range of evidence to reach evaluations and confidence that the right individuals were working in our schools. Apart from the one school the service had predicted the outcomes accurately and had reported that to Estyn in advance of the Inspection. Committee felt it would be useful if the Service could reinstate colour coding to define the status of performance for individual schools. Was there a connection between the demise of ERW and the new MWEP that this previous system of information regarding schools causing concern had lapsed. Reassurance was given that the Education Service had a comprehensive suite of data national and regional, peer to peer networks supporting on professional development. There has been a significant amount of work undertaken outside of Powys, to ensure we were not insular and work with the right external colleagues and schools who brought appropriate challenge to achieve consistent high standards where our schools and learners would thrive and would reach their individual potential. Historically there was a greater range of measures under ERW, the next report brought to Scrutiny would have more detail to compare school to school. The categorisation method was removed by WG at the same time as ERW ceased to operate. Under the Mid Wales Education Partnership (MWEP), school improvement are not areas of collaboration, but the professional learning. The key strengths were the sharing of effective practice across Powys and Ceredigion for leaders, teachers and Teaching Assistants across cluster and county borders. The work undertaken with Radyr High School had been a positive step, which would produce positive qualitative evidence and quantitative data in future years. As Powys schools are fairly autonomous, with Headteachers and Governing Bodies, committee asked for information as to how the Education Service were ensuring there was engagement. Powys has 83 schools with 79 leaders, the Education Service has a tracking matrix which enabled us to see which schools were not engaging. We were aware that there was a capacity issue due to a number of teaching Head teachers, but our SIA’s have delivered bespoke training, for those unable to leave schools. Committee noted the new range of qualifications, however it had to be highlighted that delivery was a cause for concern, given the size of some Powys schools. Challenging behaviours within school have increased, school budgets could not afford dedicated school staff to deal with these issues, therefore is most circumstances this fell on teachers. There would be impact on the academic attainment, not only of the pupil concerned but of their peers, it was wonderful to see additional vocational courses for those who were less academically able but were we letting down the more able and talented pupils. Following requests by many schools, the Local Authority has arranged for Team Teach update training, which is a de-escalation programme. A supportive behaviour strategies programme had also been implemented to support our newly qualified teaching staff. As part of the ALN strategy the positive learning environment toolkit would help support behavioural change in society. The situation of lots of time taken for a teacher to deal with a one pupil incident as described, was not necessarily recognisable, it was not shown in behaviour consultations nor on PIP referrals. We acknowledged the new sorts of challenging behaviour in schools post Covid, and schools had to be reactive to the different levels of challenge that individuals or groups posed. The questions for the Service were how do we create the space in schools to allow leaders to concentrate on leading teaching, learning and for our teachers to teach. The curriculum for Wales offers a real opportunity to energise teaching and learning relevant for young people. Through well considered progressive planning to support learning and engagement would see improved behaviour in schools. The new suite of qualifications, would as with all change, come with some complications, however these new qualifications would provide our learners with courses they want to do and add value to where they see their futures. All this combined would improve behaviour in schools, the connection and trust between the adults and the children would be seen through the whole school community. How is the Key Stage 5 impacted by the large number of learners leaving Powys for Post 16 education elsewhere. Was there any data to evidence whether those attaining the higher grades at GCSE were those going elsewhere for Post 16 education In agreement that that data would be useful, but we do not have it. Last year Powys retained just under 40% of the cohort over the last 5years the average retention has been at 38%. Learners enact their personal choice Post 16. Powys were 5-6 percentage points below the Welsh average, possibly those who can afford to attend out of County education were doing so. ALPs data looked at the added value from learners achievements at GCSE to A level. How was the new curriculum to be funded from September 2025, was any extra funding required to meet extra demand. The changes in September 2025 with the Wave 1 and Wave 2 would not be significant, as was the GCSE courses. From 2027 onwards would be when the VCSE and the Foundation, and the funding formula review would be essential to reflect the new suite of qualifications. Consultation papers on proposed changes for 2027 would be brought in due course. How would the funding issues across Powys schools impact on attainment, standards and Estyn outcomes. Detailed deep dive work had been undertaken throughout the school estate in the autumn term, which was to ensure that schools had the right conditions and funding to accelerate their learning, teaching and provision. What conversations were held with learners to retain them in Powys post GCSE. Further work was required on the impact on Pathway 14-19 as a whole, currently the Wave 2 and 3 qualification specification was not yet produced and not likely to know assessment requirements until next year. In conclusion the paper was a difficult read, there was disappointment that Powys’ schools were in the situation stated. However, the Committee requested to see this report termly and were hopeful of improvements to come. Actions: · Termly School Improvement And Standards reports to be brought to Committee. · Report to be added to the Cabinet suite of reports and papers.
Noted
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