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Apologies for absence were received from County Councillor B Davies.
The Committee received the following declarations of interest from Members: Kathryn Chedgzoy as Chair of Governors at Ysgol Bro Cynllaith.
The Committee did not receive any disclosures of prohibited party whips which a Member has been given in relation to the meeting in accordance with Section 78(3) of the Local Government Measure 2011.
Background Chair raised that the Scrutiny Recommendations sent to Cabinet 17th Sept 2024 have received no response, despite the Leader having given assurances in Cabinet these would be responded to. The Portfolio Holder replied that they were mindful in a consultation period, and did not wish to predetermine an outcome. Points raised by the Panel: Responses received from Officers or Cabinet Members. In terms of the consultation response was an option that pupils could go to Llanfyllin rather than Llanrhaeadr, as High School pupils already travel in that direction unsure if thought has been given to that proposal. That explanation does not negate the practicalities of pupils transferring to Llanfyllin rather than Llanrhaeadr ym Mochnant. The proposal was for the school to close and pupils to transfer to the nearest alternative school in Powys. Reasoning for this was to have pupils remain in Powys and receive the Welsh curriculum and opportunities for the Welsh language, knowing of the close proximity of Llansilin to the border and schools in Oswestry. The nearest school for most of the pupils currently in Llansilin was Llanrhaeadr ym Mochnant. For pupils to travel to Llanfyllin would mean that they were passing other schools, Llanfechain and Llansantffraid, as Llanfyllin was the further school. To which schools would Powys provide free transport to, as some pupils of Ysgol Bro Cynllaith are closer to Llansantffraid. Would free transport be provided to their closest school. The new home to school transport policy approved September 2024 would come into operation in September 2025. The policy has changed and stated that transport would be provided to the catchment school. Llanrhaeadr ym Mochnant’s catchment area would be extended to include the current catchment of Llansilin. Therefore wherever a pupil lives within the new catchment transport would be provided to Llanrhaeadr, if a pupil did not live in the new catchment area of Llanrhaeadr transport would be to the catchment school for where they lived. Would the whole of current Llansilin catchment area transfer to the Llanrhaeadr catchment. Was there a plan to re-draw the Llansantffraid catchment area as well or not. Should catchments be re-defined prior to the consultation stage. Re-defining post consultation could make it difficult for families who relied upon Powys transport services to transport the children to make decisions regarding Llanrhaeadr. There was real concern in the community in regard to breakfast and afterschool clubs, for working families, especially those that work in the opposite direction. There are worries that children would move to school across the border, and the new transport policy had not been tested in Court, there could be appeals for pupils to be transported over the border to their nearest schools. This would depend on where those pupils lived. If they did not live within the re-defined catchment area, they would go to the catchment school for where they lived. Currently there was 1 pupil that lived closer to Llansantffraid. First would review and re-define the Llanrhaeadr ym Mochnant catchment area first, and which catchment school they attend depends on where they live If the proposal did not obtain approval, there would not be a point in re-defining the catchment areas. There had not been any cases made against the new transport policy. Question raised to the Portfolio Holder of the guiding principle that underlined the Transformation Policy in Powys. All children, young people in powers will experience high quality, inspiring education to help develop their knowledge, skills and attributes that will enable them to become healthy, personal, fulfilled, economically productive, socially responsible and globally engaged citizen of 21st century Wales. How did this proposal sit alongside the vision statement and guiding principle without prejudging or predetermining the outcome of the application. Barriers are being put in place for working families. The Portfolio Holder responded that there was a choice for parents to move their children to the Llanrhaeadr School, however, as an authority it was recognised that that could not be forced to any particular school due to parental choice, therefore it would be up to parents to choose where they wished their children to be educated. That is the fundamental principle of education that had been in place since the 1980’s. Unsure where there are barriers as children from Llansilin who wished to be educated through the medium of Welsh were already travelling to Llanrhaeadr and would be the same for those pupils receiving education through the English medium unless they lived closer to another school e.g. Llansantffraid which offered equity for pupils living in that area Lots of young families would have two working parents, concern had been raised in respect of preschool and wrap around facilities which could force families to have their children educated over the border in Shropshire. To travel to Llanrhaeadr and work base could mean a 20 mile round trip to and from work. If wrap around facilities available would that mean additional bus services to take and collect those pupils to breakfast and from afterschool club. Wrap around facilities would be available in whichever school children transferred to, and pupils would have the same opportunities of all in the same position across the county. We understand that Llansilin is very close to the Shropshire border, and it was noted in the consultation responses the fact of pupils transferring to a school in Powys to access a Welsh curriculum. It was acknowledged that there would be an impact and difficulties for families, which had to date accessed to breakfast and after school clubs locally in Llansilin, this is the same for many schools across Powys. Most children who attend Bro Cynllaith, live in the village of Llansilin, Bro Cynllaith educates pupils that live in the villages where it is sited. It was hoped that those concerns had been recognised and responded to within the consultation responses. Request for mitigation of the challenges faced by families was put to the Portfolio Holder, which should have been included within the proposal. At this stage no decision made to close the school therefore mitigation would pre-determine the outcome. Children from Llansilin were already attending Llanrhaeadr in the Welsh medium stream and the English Stream pupils from Llansilin would have the same experience. Could the Committee be informed of the number of pupils from Llansilin who attended Llanrhaeadr for Welsh medium education Therefore 36 pupils from the Llansilin catchment area would require school transport to a school. A recommendation to be made from this meeting was that catchment maps needed to be provided to parents to allow them to make appropriate decisions How many pupils from England attended Ysgol Bro Cynllaith currently. School transport was still an issue, as previous guidance from Welsh Government was to transport to the closest school regardless if in Wales or England. If that still applied there could be children transported in both directions and a request to officers raised to clarify this issue with Welsh Government, as concern the policy could be subjected to challenge. Currently 11 pupils were attending for Welsh medium Education. There was 1 pupil who attended Ysgol Bro Cynllaith currently from England. Chair raised the point that if the recommendation from September 2024 had been responded to a lot of this discussion would have been negated. Concerned were noted by Committee of the impact school closure would have on the community of losing this resource. The budget requirement for the school would provide pressure on the Council given the school’s size. The Committee were aware of the asset management policy in regard to council buildings, was there scope for the community to be provided with support so that they would not lose a vital hub of the village. How would that engagement be provided, at times through experience that has not been a two way conversation what resources were available within the council. The impact was significant on the community, there were linkages with the memorial hall and school. The council, should the school close, would engage further with the community as to what would happen with the building and site. There were options in terms of community asset transfer. It was recognised in terms of the village hall and the activities that took place there, with other proposals consideration had been given to support through signposting of funding through grants and different options for funding. Conversations would be commenced with the Community council and would be undertaken by officers who were more involved in community wellbeing. The engagement process was raised that a public meeting had been organised for Cabinet Members to attend, none were available with the exception of the Portfolio Holder and the Leader who attended via online method as was unwell. Comment was made that hope of future engagement was high. There was concern raised of the possibility of community asset transfer, the playing field was the only green space within Llansilin and in public ownership, there would be pushback from the community if moves were made to asset realisation for development. The finance backlog in maintenance totalled a figure of £127k. £90k of which related to the defunct mobile unit in the playground. The current finance backlog figure therefor was relatively small. The previous figure within the consultation report was higher. The Council had undertaken condition surveys on all schools, the Property Team are in the process of verifying information from these reports. Ysgol Bro Cynllaith’s condition grading was a C in the Consultation Document that was published at the time, but now the school was being categorised as a B. Llanrhaeadr ym Mochnant was categorised previously with a condition survey of a B and remained a B. Could committee be provided with a breakdown of projected savings if the pupils Shropshire Within the Cabinet report the cost was assessed for those pupils transferring out of County as was such a significant issue raised in the consultation In paragraph 4.6 of the Cabinet Report alternative estimates of the same 25 learners assuming all moved out of County for education. The formula projections assumed no additional transport costs on the basis that the transport policy would have changed by then to catchment school. Based on this there was expectation that the full funding formula funding budget share for Bro Cynllaith would be saved, which would be £206.6k and no funding would need to be transferred to any of the other schools within Powys. There had been a reduction for the statutory testing and for the business rates with an element removed which comes back to the £201,800. Also included was an element to bring down that saving based on the potential for losing some of the RSG (Revenue Settlement Grant) as a result of pupils not attending High School in Powys which was £105k. The Formula for Primary Schools took into account deprivation and sparsity (Impact on SSA) under estimated. At present there has not been any adjustment made in relation to Council Tax elements. Reference was not made in the Consultation process of grants that Powys County Council received for education. The calculation shown did not reflect the potential loss of pupils to high school across the border, the RSG in future years would be impacted. Should the pupils from Bro Cynllaith all move across the border to Shropshire for education the impact could be modelled up, in time for Cabinet next week, if those pupils did not return to Powys for secondary education. Grants that Bro Cynllaith received could also be shared with Committee. The majority of pupils in Ysgol Bro Cynllaith were receiving education through the English medium, what impact would this have on the Welsh language continuum for Llanrhaeadr school if those pupils did not choose a Welsh medium education. If all pupils from Bro Cynllaith transferred to the English medium stream. The balance would switch to more pupils in the English medium than the Welsh. The Welsh medium stream at Llanrhaeadr had not followed any particular pattern as seen in other schools Welsh streams. The impact on Ysgol Llanrhaeadr ym Mochnant is noted in the impact assessments. The classroom structure in Llanrhaeadr was similar to Ysgol Bro Cynllaith, yet the paper states pupils would be in classes with peers of a similar age. The dual stream school has 4 classes, 2 English and 2 Welsh medium however the school did not operate in segregation, pupils would have greater opportunities to mix with peers. Were there sufficient places for all Ysgol Bro Cynllaith children in the specific year groups. Chair noted that points on class sizes were raised within the recommendation paper to Cabinet of the 17th September however this was not in relation to the paper before Scrutiny today. It was recognised that if all pupils from Llansilin transferred to Ysgol Llanrhaeadr ym Mochnant, then a few year groups would be slightly over their PAN, and the PAN is for whole year groups and not for individual streams. However, if the issue arose, then we’d discuss these with the governing body at the time. The Chief Executive followed up on the Chair’s point, that assumptions were being made and at this point, a decision had not been made on the school. Depending on that decision any receiving in school would have to review their intake and re-configure accordingly to that class structure. The capacity issue at Llanrhaeadr came out in the consultation and had not been fully addressed. There was significant capital required if indeed an additional classroom was required. A further issue raised was the travel times guidance for pupils of a primary age Committee were informed that travel times were no longer stated in the Learner Wales Travel Measure. If pupils moved to Llanrhaeadr there would be a significant impact on that school, was there consultation with Llanrhaeadr Governors In terms of Llanrhaeadr and any other affected schools, they would all receive copies of the consultation documents, as a way of making them aware of the consultation but had not met with them directly. Committee queried if there had been any buy in for the other options that had been outlined e.g. the classroom in the countryside model. The option of a ‘classroom in the country’ refers to a small school that could come under the wing of a larger school, in this case Ysgol Llanfyllin taking over Ysgol Bro Cynllaith Under the School Organisation Code, it is required to assess options for rural schools against the impact on the community, the impact on the standards and outcomes and the impact on travel, and in this case, it was a negative outcome. A key element for that option was for Ysgol Bro Cynllaith to remain for a limited time until the new build in Llanfyllin was completed.
Part of an issue followed across 5 meetings
Points raised by the Panel: Responses received from Officers or Cabinet Members. Request made by the Committee for the numbers of surplus places in Llanfaes and the Priory schools. Information would be forwarded if not responded to within the meeting. Committee Member queried why were budgets projected to the penny (Pg 18). The current pupils numbers were recorded as different figures within the SOC (pg19 & pg. 28-30) should these two sets of figures be the same. The proposal was for a 360 pupil school to be opened in September 2027, yet the January 2028 projected figures across the 3 schools involved was reported at 258, resulting in 102 surplus places. Were there effectively 2 classes too many and more suitable school size would be 300 pupils. Was there still a requirement by Welsh Government that school should have no more than 15% capacity, which could place at risk the repayment of the grant. The options proposal looked at a number of variables. The scope looked at the size of the school and what were the facilities included. The options covered pupils numbers of 300, 360 and 420. The projections were expected to fall across the school, however there were 109 pupils in the Foundation phase. On an average class size of 30 there would be required 3.6 classes. There were 190 pupils in Key Stage 3 which would equate to 6.3 classes of 30. For the projected numbers 10 classes would be required. Given that detail the school size of 360 was the most appropriate and flexible structure moving forward. It was known how pupil number fluctuated, and another 2 classrooms would be required for classes to be accommodated. The clause remains and could put at risk the repayment of the grant should capacity not be reached within 5 years. The Committee welcomed the positive investment to the south of the county, the schools concerned were in need of improved facilities. The site would have Early Years wrap around provision opportunities, as well as facilities for the community and the multi-agency facilities. Further clarity was requested, given the costs involved, to the possibilities for schools to be refurbished, given the maintenance backlog was £1.3m against projected build costs of £5m. The existing schools were very tired and small, with poor access. There were a whole range of issues which made them unfit for purpose. The three schools in question were already federated across 3 sites, there was not one site that was suitable for redevelopment on this scale. The maintenance costs noted in the reports were for the fabric only. The new build would address all safeguarding issues and operational challenges, to support the Governing Body and the Leadership team within the one site school. Concerns were raised in regard to school transport and nearest, closest and catchment school. The Committee would make a recommendation that the Cabinet formally write to Welsh Government for clarity and to obtain their firm position to give assurance in relation to transfer to closest school, if not catchment school. Assurance sought that the lifetime costs of the new builds would be better than current buildings and would lead to the overall costs to the Council being reduced. It was noted that there should be the same life time expectancy for the building and seeking assurances from contractors to verify that to Councillors.
Scrutiny made the following observations on both items presented to Committee: · The Committee welcomed: o The investment in Ysgol Pen y Fan to provide children with greater facilities, Early Years wrap around provision and with the addition of community and multi-agency facilities. · The Committee noted: o The maintenance costs detailed in the report of the current federated 3 sites involved in the Ysgol Pen y Fan transformation project, were only for the fabric of the buildings, and would not address the safeguarding nor operational challenges across those sites. o The new build of Ysgol Pen y Fan, would be constructed for a similar lifespan to current, modern build methods would ensure annual costs would be reduced or kept to a minimum. o The Councils commitment to engage with the community in Llansilin on the Ysgol Bro Cynllaith site, should the school closure, and options that would be available, e.g., transfer and grant funding, especially as the playing field was the only green space in the village. o That evidence was not provided within the report on why the option of Llanfyllin / Ysgol Bro Cynllaith dual site was not considered. · The Committee requested: o A breakdown of the projected savings in relation to Ysgol Bro Cynllaith, should pupils and families decide to be educated out of county, and the impact on the Revenue Settlement Grant (High School element) for future years be measured should such a situation occur. o A formal letter be sent to the Welsh Government requesting clarity on its stance on cross-border school transport, nearest and catchment schools. · The Committee remained unconvinced about o The option of Ysgol Bro Cynllaith pupils to attend Ysgol Llanfyllin being offered during the consultation process as a viable alternative to Ysgol Llanrhaeadr-ym-Mochnant. o The figures reported within the Ysgol Bro Cynllaith documents in relation to maintenance costs which included the cost of refurbishment of a redundant mobile unit. · The Committee expressed concern: o That catchment maps should have been presented at the earliest opportunity within the Consultation phase to allow pupils, parents / carers to make informed decisions. o Of the impact on working families in relation to the availability of breakfast and afterschool club provision, where school transport would in future have to be relied upon. o That the offer of meetings between Cabinet Members and Officers with the Bro Cynllaith school and community was only attended by the Portfolio Holder in person, with the Leader of the Cabinet joining on-line. o Of the commitment to future engagement with the Llansilin community in relation to the site, should Ysgol Bro Cynllaith close. o That the new Home to School Transport Policy, due for implementation Sept 2025, could be open for legal challenge. 1. How assured were the Cabinet that the new Home to School Transport Policy, due for implementation Sept 2025, would withstand legal challenge. 2. A formal letter to be sent to the Welsh Government requesting clarity on its stance on cross-border school transport, nearest and catchment schools. 3. Catchment maps to be provided at point of consultation, to allow pupils, parents, and carers to make informed decisions. 4. Analysis of future years classroom capacity for the receiving-in schools, particularly where new housing developments are earmarked or in the process of development, be undertaken and included within future Education consultation reports. 5. Assurance sought that the Welsh Language Continuum for Llanrhaeadr Ym Mochnant, would not be affected, as per recommendation of the 17th of September 2024. 6. The effect of the Powys resident primary aged pupils, and their continued Secondary Education provided out of county, on the Revenue Settlement Grant (RSG) to be considered in future school transformation programmes.
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